The Ramble Queen_of_Snapes asked for
Sep. 20th, 2012 07:42 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
therealsnapeIn the 24-question meme, ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
queen_of_snapes chose: just ramble on on something related to fandom - go, go, go. I asked for a bit of time to sort out my thoughts, and she must have despaired of ever getting an answer.
But here I turn up, like a bad Knut, with a not so little ramble. But then, she knows I'm a waffler.
One of the things in fandom that sometimes manage to annoy me a little is the focus on pairings and sex-scenes. There are a great many fandoms in which there might be excellent stories, if only one wouldn't want to come up with a pairing.
I should begin by explaining my ideas of a good fanfiction story. These ideas are strictly my personal opinion; many excellent writers will disagree completely, of course. It's just about what I like to write and read - a personal opinion, nothing more.
I love canon-compliantness - to a degree. I'm not a fan of the kind of stories that JKR once so aptly described as tales beginning with, "Hi, I'm Lily Evans, and you all thought I was dead - but I'm not!" On the other hand, I can live with ignoring the epilogue, since that's so clearly not a part of the 7-year story, but an attempt to rule from beyond the Veil. As to Pottermore and interview canon, I'm firmly of the If you think it's important, write another book school of thought.
But other than that, I like my stories to be possible and believable within the framework of the original story. Which is why I love the Potter-fandom so much: there's this whole set of fascinating older characters, and since the books are told strictly from Harry's point of view, we know little or nothing about their private lives and private interactions. There are a few, small glimpses: Molly and Tonks having a woman-to-woman talk; Minerva who has known Augusta at school; Griselda who is such a great friend of Augusta.
For the others, we are free to make up their relationships as we see fit. But in quite a few other fandoms, in my opinion, the need for pairings leads to 'we must have a pairing; so we'll bed the main characters, regardless of the personal inclination of the character or the intention of the writer'.
And when I say 'intention of the writer' I don't mean: did the writer plan a sex-life for their characters. JKR mostly didn't where her older characters are concerned. It doesn't stop me from writing those relationships, based on what I mentioned above. What I do mean is: given the way the relationship is described in the books, is there any likelyhood that these two might fall in love? This is why I will never write Sybill/Minerva. The books make it perfectly clear that Minerva doesn't even like her - I can't see these two fall in love based on what we know from canon.
Severus/Minerva? Yes. Harry sees the bickering - that may well be UST. Or RST. He just doesn't realise it. What we know from canon doesn't completely preclude the relationship in my eyes.
When it comes to this stress on pairings I mentioned, Downton Abbey, for me, is a case in point. Quite often the discussion isn't 'which stories are worth telling', but 'whom can we pair the character with'. And the downside of Downton as a fandom is that it's rather hard to find pairings other than the canon ones. There's the three daughters of the house, who are at an age in which people usually look for life partners, and sure enough they find one. But those stories are told on screen, and while one may fill in missing moments, and write excellent stories with those moments, one can't change much about the course of things. At least, I, since I prefer to write canon-compliant, couldn't.
And then there's the Downton singletons, but it's not easy to find someone with whom one might pair them realistically.
Carson/Mrs Hughes, yes. I can see how that might work very well.
But O'Brien? Mrs Hughes, possibly, in terms of age and opportunity. Especially since Mrs is a job-related courtesy title - you don't have to explain away a heterosexual backstory and she does refuse the man who proposes. But the downside is, never in the series do I get the impression that Mrs Hughes even likes O'Brien, leave alone that she might fall for her. And on quite a few occasions there seems to be active dislike on Hughes's side.
Or Isobel/Violet? Well, that would take some doing on both sides. Mind, a good author might write a convincing story. But what I'd be really interested in is their back stories. As gen fic. And O'Brien's inner life. Notably how she deals with what she did to Cora, and how it changes her. Or a fic exploring the friendship between O'Brien and Thomas; they are introduced as firm allies from the start, but what makes them so?
Mind, I don't mean to say none of the Downton characters should have a sex-life. But it might have to involve OC's. And for those who don't like to write OC's, there might be very interesting stories if one lets go of the idea of pairing the characters up.
The same goes for the Inspector Lewis series. There's a strong tendency to pair him with Hathaway. But while a good writer could convince me that Hathaway might be in love with (or have a crush on) Lewis, I can't see it the other way around, because we know too much about Lewis's inclinations. Everything we've ever learned about him, both in this series and in Morse, points to the fact that he's heterosexual and self-identifies as such. Pairing him with Hathaway would make him OOC to me.
There are countless other examples. Wooster/Jeeves stories. P.G. Wodehouse wrote countless Wooster & Jeeves stories, but I very much doubt that either of these two characters would truly prefer the other over all other men (and, in Wooster's case, all other women). Of course, if a writer wants to write m/m within the Jeeves stories, theirs are the first two names that spring to mind. (Although I'd find Jeeves/Roderick Glossop much more likely, and doable within canon.) But Jeeves/Wooster feels to me as a 'we must have a pairing; so we'll bed the main characters' case.
So, yes, this tendency to run an online dating agency is one thing I regret. The other thing is the strong focus on the explicit sex scene. Mind, it can be beautifully done; it can be a vital scene in a story; there are all sorts of excellent reasons for writing sex scenes.
But occasionally the reason seems to be 'must have sex scene'. To the point where people almost apologise if their sign up contains a request for maximum PG-13. Or they very carefully hint that 'it would be perfectly all right to fade out at the sex scene'.
In fact, quite a few sex-scenes in my stories were added because the fest had a mandatory rating (my stories for femmeslash day, Yule Balls, and femmefest notably). I didn't enjoy writing those scenes, and I don't think they add all that much to the stories. These days I carefully limit myself to fests where I can do as I see fit. Sometimes that's explicit sex, when the story asks for it, and sometimes it's not. And when the story asks for it, I suddenly find it the greatest possible fun to write.
Well, that was my not so little ramble.
queen_of_snapes chose: just ramble on on something related to fandom - go, go, go. I asked for a bit of time to sort out my thoughts, and she must have despaired of ever getting an answer. But here I turn up, like a bad Knut, with a not so little ramble. But then, she knows I'm a waffler.
One of the things in fandom that sometimes manage to annoy me a little is the focus on pairings and sex-scenes. There are a great many fandoms in which there might be excellent stories, if only one wouldn't want to come up with a pairing.
I should begin by explaining my ideas of a good fanfiction story. These ideas are strictly my personal opinion; many excellent writers will disagree completely, of course. It's just about what I like to write and read - a personal opinion, nothing more.
I love canon-compliantness - to a degree. I'm not a fan of the kind of stories that JKR once so aptly described as tales beginning with, "Hi, I'm Lily Evans, and you all thought I was dead - but I'm not!" On the other hand, I can live with ignoring the epilogue, since that's so clearly not a part of the 7-year story, but an attempt to rule from beyond the Veil. As to Pottermore and interview canon, I'm firmly of the If you think it's important, write another book school of thought.
But other than that, I like my stories to be possible and believable within the framework of the original story. Which is why I love the Potter-fandom so much: there's this whole set of fascinating older characters, and since the books are told strictly from Harry's point of view, we know little or nothing about their private lives and private interactions. There are a few, small glimpses: Molly and Tonks having a woman-to-woman talk; Minerva who has known Augusta at school; Griselda who is such a great friend of Augusta.
For the others, we are free to make up their relationships as we see fit. But in quite a few other fandoms, in my opinion, the need for pairings leads to 'we must have a pairing; so we'll bed the main characters, regardless of the personal inclination of the character or the intention of the writer'.
And when I say 'intention of the writer' I don't mean: did the writer plan a sex-life for their characters. JKR mostly didn't where her older characters are concerned. It doesn't stop me from writing those relationships, based on what I mentioned above. What I do mean is: given the way the relationship is described in the books, is there any likelyhood that these two might fall in love? This is why I will never write Sybill/Minerva. The books make it perfectly clear that Minerva doesn't even like her - I can't see these two fall in love based on what we know from canon.
Severus/Minerva? Yes. Harry sees the bickering - that may well be UST. Or RST. He just doesn't realise it. What we know from canon doesn't completely preclude the relationship in my eyes.
When it comes to this stress on pairings I mentioned, Downton Abbey, for me, is a case in point. Quite often the discussion isn't 'which stories are worth telling', but 'whom can we pair the character with'. And the downside of Downton as a fandom is that it's rather hard to find pairings other than the canon ones. There's the three daughters of the house, who are at an age in which people usually look for life partners, and sure enough they find one. But those stories are told on screen, and while one may fill in missing moments, and write excellent stories with those moments, one can't change much about the course of things. At least, I, since I prefer to write canon-compliant, couldn't.
And then there's the Downton singletons, but it's not easy to find someone with whom one might pair them realistically.
Carson/Mrs Hughes, yes. I can see how that might work very well.
But O'Brien? Mrs Hughes, possibly, in terms of age and opportunity. Especially since Mrs is a job-related courtesy title - you don't have to explain away a heterosexual backstory and she does refuse the man who proposes. But the downside is, never in the series do I get the impression that Mrs Hughes even likes O'Brien, leave alone that she might fall for her. And on quite a few occasions there seems to be active dislike on Hughes's side.
Or Isobel/Violet? Well, that would take some doing on both sides. Mind, a good author might write a convincing story. But what I'd be really interested in is their back stories. As gen fic. And O'Brien's inner life. Notably how she deals with what she did to Cora, and how it changes her. Or a fic exploring the friendship between O'Brien and Thomas; they are introduced as firm allies from the start, but what makes them so?
Mind, I don't mean to say none of the Downton characters should have a sex-life. But it might have to involve OC's. And for those who don't like to write OC's, there might be very interesting stories if one lets go of the idea of pairing the characters up.
The same goes for the Inspector Lewis series. There's a strong tendency to pair him with Hathaway. But while a good writer could convince me that Hathaway might be in love with (or have a crush on) Lewis, I can't see it the other way around, because we know too much about Lewis's inclinations. Everything we've ever learned about him, both in this series and in Morse, points to the fact that he's heterosexual and self-identifies as such. Pairing him with Hathaway would make him OOC to me.
There are countless other examples. Wooster/Jeeves stories. P.G. Wodehouse wrote countless Wooster & Jeeves stories, but I very much doubt that either of these two characters would truly prefer the other over all other men (and, in Wooster's case, all other women). Of course, if a writer wants to write m/m within the Jeeves stories, theirs are the first two names that spring to mind. (Although I'd find Jeeves/Roderick Glossop much more likely, and doable within canon.) But Jeeves/Wooster feels to me as a 'we must have a pairing; so we'll bed the main characters' case.
So, yes, this tendency to run an online dating agency is one thing I regret. The other thing is the strong focus on the explicit sex scene. Mind, it can be beautifully done; it can be a vital scene in a story; there are all sorts of excellent reasons for writing sex scenes.
But occasionally the reason seems to be 'must have sex scene'. To the point where people almost apologise if their sign up contains a request for maximum PG-13. Or they very carefully hint that 'it would be perfectly all right to fade out at the sex scene'.
In fact, quite a few sex-scenes in my stories were added because the fest had a mandatory rating (my stories for femmeslash day, Yule Balls, and femmefest notably). I didn't enjoy writing those scenes, and I don't think they add all that much to the stories. These days I carefully limit myself to fests where I can do as I see fit. Sometimes that's explicit sex, when the story asks for it, and sometimes it's not. And when the story asks for it, I suddenly find it the greatest possible fun to write.
Well, that was my not so little ramble.
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(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-20 09:54 pm (UTC)As for the obsession with pairings, it's something I've thought about myself from time to time. I do enjoy stories about romance and/or sex -- and I don't mind background pairings in genfic either -- but there's also more to life. If a character's 'pairability' is the only thing considered interesting about them, then that sounds rather boring.
Of course, if a writer wants to write m/m within the Jeeves stories, theirs are the first two names that spring to mind.
I'm not sure how often it actually happens in that order, though? I can only speak for myself, of course, but most often the desire to write about a pairing actually stems from enjoying their dynamics and the prospect of there being more to their relationship than what is shown in canon. I can't remember reading a story and thinking, 'Oh, I want to slash SOMEONE, but who? Oh well, these two guys will have to do...' So my guess is that many most people who read or write Bertie/Jeeves romance do so because they enjoy this specific pairing, and not because any slash ship in that canon would do the job -- I know I don't feel that way about the pairings I like. I couldn't replace Holmes/Watson with Holmes/Lestrade and enjoy it just as much, for instance.
Basically I think the desire to read/write about characters' relationships can often be similar or even identical to the desire to read/write about characters' backstories: wanting to know more about the stuff canon doesn't tell us.
Pairing [Lewis] with Hathaway would make him OOC to me.
I think there's a significant difference between a story in which Lewis has spent his whole life in the closet, only marrying because of expectations etc., and a story in which he comes to love Hathaway, though that doesn't in any way negate his previous relationships. The first scenario is ooc because we know Lewis loved his wife and that he's attracted to women. The other one doesn't have to be, IMO, given that sometimes people fall in love with a person of a different gender than they'd previously been attracted to. L and H may not be sleeping together, but they certainly care about each other -- I've read several stories in which skilled writers have believably developed their friendship into love.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-21 06:51 pm (UTC)Sorry, I explained myself badly. I'm not saying the writers would think like that - it is just that to me the combination feels not only so unlikely, but also so completely against what canon tells us about the relationship, that I can only explain the choice for a slash pairing by the desire to write pairing fic. Which is probably my problem entirely. And my loss. I admire
Jeeves/Wooster friendship or genfic by
And I totally believe you on the Hathaway/Lewis story of the second kind you mention.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-22 01:54 pm (UTC)If you are going in and trying to make logical sense of the universe, sometimes that desire to have the two characters you love fall in love with each other can make for interesting, unexpected pairing fic, and sometimes it's a little hard to get past the canonical obstacles to it. (And sometimes both.) :)
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-23 08:19 am (UTC)You're right about writing Gussie - Tuppy, perhaps, but Gussie? Also, Bertie really likes Tuppy, and he thinks Gussie is the most ghastly whimp. Can't see them bonding over newts, either.
Funnily enough, your B is why the pairing doesn't work. Giving Jeeves Bertie? For crying out loud, the man has a brain. He'd be bored to tears within hours.
But the point about the importance of the character in the original story, and the tendency to pair them with equally important ones, yes, I totally see that.