The Ramble Queen_of_Snapes asked for

[therealsnape]

In the 24-question meme, queen_of_snapes chose: just ramble on on something related to fandom - go, go, go. I asked for a bit of time to sort out my thoughts, and she must have despaired of ever getting an answer.

But here I turn up, like a bad Knut, with a not so little ramble. But then, she knows I'm a waffler.



One of the things in fandom that sometimes manage to annoy me a little is the focus on pairings and sex-scenes. There are a great many fandoms in which there might be excellent stories, if only one wouldn't want to come up with a pairing.

I should begin by explaining my ideas of a good fanfiction story. These ideas are strictly my personal opinion; many excellent writers will disagree completely, of course. It's just about what I like to write and read - a personal opinion, nothing more.

I love canon-compliantness - to a degree. I'm not a fan of the kind of stories that JKR once so aptly described as tales beginning with, "Hi, I'm Lily Evans, and you all thought I was dead - but I'm not!" On the other hand, I can live with ignoring the epilogue, since that's so clearly not a part of the 7-year story, but an attempt to rule from beyond the Veil. As to Pottermore and interview canon, I'm firmly of the If you think it's important, write another book school of thought.

But other than that, I like my stories to be possible and believable within the framework of the original story. Which is why I love the Potter-fandom so much: there's this whole set of fascinating older characters, and since the books are told strictly from Harry's point of view, we know little or nothing about their private lives and private interactions. There are a few, small glimpses: Molly and Tonks having a woman-to-woman talk; Minerva who has known Augusta at school; Griselda who is such a great friend of Augusta.

For the others, we are free to make up their relationships as we see fit. But in quite a few other fandoms, in my opinion, the need for pairings leads to 'we must have a pairing; so we'll bed the main characters, regardless of the personal inclination of the character or the intention of the writer'.

And when I say 'intention of the writer' I don't mean: did the writer plan a sex-life for their characters. JKR mostly didn't where her older characters are concerned. It doesn't stop me from writing those relationships, based on what I mentioned above. What I do mean is: given the way the relationship is described in the books, is there any likelyhood that these two might fall in love? This is why I will never write Sybill/Minerva. The books make it perfectly clear that Minerva doesn't even like her - I can't see these two fall in love based on what we know from canon.

Severus/Minerva? Yes. Harry sees the bickering - that may well be UST. Or RST. He just doesn't realise it. What we know from canon doesn't completely preclude the relationship in my eyes.

When it comes to this stress on pairings I mentioned, Downton Abbey, for me, is a case in point. Quite often the discussion isn't 'which stories are worth telling', but 'whom can we pair the character with'. And the downside of Downton as a fandom is that it's rather hard to find pairings other than the canon ones. There's the three daughters of the house, who are at an age in which people usually look for life partners, and sure enough they find one. But those stories are told on screen, and while one may fill in missing moments, and write excellent stories with those moments, one can't change much about the course of things. At least, I, since I prefer to write canon-compliant, couldn't.

And then there's the Downton singletons, but it's not easy to find someone with whom one might pair them realistically.

Carson/Mrs Hughes, yes. I can see how that might work very well.

But O'Brien? Mrs Hughes, possibly, in terms of age and opportunity. Especially since Mrs is a job-related courtesy title - you don't have to explain away a heterosexual backstory and she does refuse the man who proposes. But the downside is, never in the series do I get the impression that Mrs Hughes even likes O'Brien, leave alone that she might fall for her. And on quite a few occasions there seems to be active dislike on Hughes's side.

Or Isobel/Violet? Well, that would take some doing on both sides. Mind, a good author might write a convincing story. But what I'd be really interested in is their back stories. As gen fic. And O'Brien's inner life. Notably how she deals with what she did to Cora, and how it changes her. Or a fic exploring the friendship between O'Brien and Thomas; they are introduced as firm allies from the start, but what makes them so?

Mind, I don't mean to say none of the Downton characters should have a sex-life. But it might have to involve OC's. And for those who don't like to write OC's, there might be very interesting stories if one lets go of the idea of pairing the characters up.

The same goes for the Inspector Lewis series. There's a strong tendency to pair him with Hathaway. But while a good writer could convince me that Hathaway might be in love with (or have a crush on) Lewis, I can't see it the other way around, because we know too much about Lewis's inclinations. Everything we've ever learned about him, both in this series and in Morse, points to the fact that he's heterosexual and self-identifies as such. Pairing him with Hathaway would make him OOC to me.

There are countless other examples. Wooster/Jeeves stories. P.G. Wodehouse wrote countless Wooster & Jeeves stories, but I very much doubt that either of these two characters would truly prefer the other over all other men (and, in Wooster's case, all other women). Of course, if a writer wants to write m/m within the Jeeves stories, theirs are the first two names that spring to mind. (Although I'd find Jeeves/Roderick Glossop much more likely, and doable within canon.) But Jeeves/Wooster feels to me as a 'we must have a pairing; so we'll bed the main characters' case.

So, yes, this tendency to run an online dating agency is one thing I regret. The other thing is the strong focus on the explicit sex scene. Mind, it can be beautifully done; it can be a vital scene in a story; there are all sorts of excellent reasons for writing sex scenes.

But occasionally the reason seems to be 'must have sex scene'. To the point where people almost apologise if their sign up contains a request for maximum PG-13. Or they very carefully hint that 'it would be perfectly all right to fade out at the sex scene'.

In fact, quite a few sex-scenes in my stories were added because the fest had a mandatory rating (my stories for femmeslash day, Yule Balls, and femmefest notably). I didn't enjoy writing those scenes, and I don't think they add all that much to the stories. These days I carefully limit myself to fests where I can do as I see fit. Sometimes that's explicit sex, when the story asks for it, and sometimes it's not. And when the story asks for it, I suddenly find it the greatest possible fun to write.

Well, that was my not so little ramble.

Comments

[tetleythesecond]

This is such an awesome ramble that, if it were possible, I'd fangirl you even more now than I did already. I've always had a soft spot for backstory-exploring gen, and it often surprises me how little there is in fandom. And I feel like you about the extreme focus on pairings. There is so much else in life, and there is so much more to liberation than sex. (Of course sex is part of it, not to be misunderstood, but yeah ... I've come to prefer fests where you've got a chance of at least a decent percentage of gen -- which can also contain couples and sex, of course, but with a focus on something else.)

Whilst I agree with you about Severus and Minerva than canon doesn't completely preclude the relationship, I must say that there is also a premise under which I could imagine a past Minerva/Sybill. In fact, I the second I read it, a storyline formed in my mind. I'll safely stow it away (take your pick whether that should be for future reference or so I'll never see it again. *g*)

[kellychambliss.livejournal.com]

And don't think I've forgotten that I owe you a ramble, too! I've actually written bits of one.

What a thoughtful, insightful, perceptive "ramble" you've written here, but then who could be surprised? Not I. This was a delight to read. I'm happy for you to ramble more often!

I'm completely with you on canon-complicity; those stories are by far the ones I like best to read and write. That's not to say that I don't also enjoy the occasional total AU -- when the fully-recognizable canon characters are present. And I also want any romantic relationship to be plausible within the canon universe. I understand that different readers will have different interpretations of what constitutes "plausible," and that's fine. But to me, there are just certain pairings that wouldn't be likely. (Much as I'd enjoy some good Violet femmeslash, for instance, I just don't see it happening with Isobel [or so far, with any of the canon possibilities.] As you say, a fine writer could probably find a way to make it work -- sort of -- but it would be a stretch. Ditto Mrs Hughes/O'Brien.)

And I know you have not suggested otherwise, but I just want to clarify that even an intense fondness for pairings and sex-scenes doesn't preclude an equal appreciation of non-pairing gen. I often enter enthusiastically into discussions of "who can we pair with whom?"and I do write mostly pairing-fic (though with a wide rating range), but I still like gen very much.

I'm of two minds about fests that require a certain rating. On the one hand, I agree totally that being forced to put smut in a story that doesn't need it is a problem -- false to the story and not fun to write. But as a writer, sometimes I enjoy the challenge of writing something that requires me to include a certain element, whether it be sex or something else. But like you, I tend not to sign up if the requirements are too restrictive for whatever stories I have in mind.

I think what I like least about those "must be R or NC-17" fests is not the focus on sex and pairings per se, but how often the stories end up focusing JUST on the porn, with little attention to character or motivation, so that while the participants may be called "Harry" or "Severus" or whoever, they bear little relationship to their canon counterparts. They could just as easily be called "John Doe" and "Phil Moe."

Anyway, another fine TRS post. Do consider rambling more often, dear /g/.

[queen-of-snapes.livejournal.com]

Yay, a TRS ramble! *\o/* Always worth the wait.

I do agree that there tends to be too much focus on pairings in fanfiction. I remeber from my early fanfic days in the Star Trek Voyager universe that most of what you got was Janeway/Chakotay romance stuff, and that was so not my cup of tea... There were hardly any gen stories around (though I should add that at the time I only read German stories, so the selection was very limited), but judging by the fact that J/C is still the pre-dominant pairing I don't think much has changed.

Downton Abbey is probably the only fandom I don't read any fanfic of, because most of the stories tend to focus on a particular pairing, whether it's the same as on the show or not. I'm fine with the couples we get on screen, but I'm not interested enough in those or any alternatives that I feel the need to read stories about them.

In fact, the only fandom I actively look for stories with certain pairings is Harry Potter; perhaps because there's such an interesting variety of choices. You can be picky, and even rare pairings like Snape/McG have gathered a greater following over the years. But here, too, what I like best are gen stories, or stories that have pairings in the background.

I don't have much fest experience and I never came across fests that had mandatory ratings, but I don't think I'd participate. Sex scenes that were forced into a story just for the sake of fulfilling a requirement are awful. If they're part of the story, if they fit in - great. But otherwise, no.

[miss-morland.livejournal.com]

I agree that the strong focus on explicit sex/high ratings can get tedious, and I'd like to add that to me, stories with lower ratings but plenty of chemistry/tension can often be sexier than fics that go into detail after technical detail. The emotions and characterisations are what gets to me the most, basically.

As for the obsession with pairings, it's something I've thought about myself from time to time. I do enjoy stories about romance and/or sex -- and I don't mind background pairings in genfic either -- but there's also more to life. If a character's 'pairability' is the only thing considered interesting about them, then that sounds rather boring.

Of course, if a writer wants to write m/m within the Jeeves stories, theirs are the first two names that spring to mind.

I'm not sure how often it actually happens in that order, though? I can only speak for myself, of course, but most often the desire to write about a pairing actually stems from enjoying their dynamics and the prospect of there being more to their relationship than what is shown in canon. I can't remember reading a story and thinking, 'Oh, I want to slash SOMEONE, but who? Oh well, these two guys will have to do...' So my guess is that many most people who read or write Bertie/Jeeves romance do so because they enjoy this specific pairing, and not because any slash ship in that canon would do the job -- I know I don't feel that way about the pairings I like. I couldn't replace Holmes/Watson with Holmes/Lestrade and enjoy it just as much, for instance.

Basically I think the desire to read/write about characters' relationships can often be similar or even identical to the desire to read/write about characters' backstories: wanting to know more about the stuff canon doesn't tell us.

Pairing [Lewis] with Hathaway would make him OOC to me.

I think there's a significant difference between a story in which Lewis has spent his whole life in the closet, only marrying because of expectations etc., and a story in which he comes to love Hathaway, though that doesn't in any way negate his previous relationships. The first scenario is ooc because we know Lewis loved his wife and that he's attracted to women. The other one doesn't have to be, IMO, given that sometimes people fall in love with a person of a different gender than they'd previously been attracted to. L and H may not be sleeping together, but they certainly care about each other -- I've read several stories in which skilled writers have believably developed their friendship into love.

[cranky--crocus.livejournal.com]

One of the things in fandom that sometimes manage to annoy me a little is the focus on pairings and sex-scenes.
*Offers a big "WHOOP WHOOP!" (fist-waving included) for the beginning of this ramble.*

Totally with you here. The others have said all that I would have said, only better--which is one of the many reasons I love my flist. (:

Sometimes it makes me sad that much of the fic I write would interest most people and that the fic I write that does contain sex-scenes mostly wouldn't interest people either, because it's character-specific with each person (alright, mostly 'woman') involved different: pleasure process, interests, confidence, whatever. It's not going to work to change a few names, some hair colour and some eye colour to have different characters or a self-insert--not in the way that seems common, anyway. And some of my scenes don't even sound particularly sexy, I guess because there are times when, to an outsider, the sex won't look/seem/be that sexy unless one is invested in the pleasure of each character rather than on specific acts, metaphors, euphemisms, vagueness, ambiguity, or the phrase 'down there'.

Down there. I'm a scientist! In the land of science, things have names--especially anatomy. Granted, they aren't very sexy names. But things can be sexy with the right guttural inflection...

(I know you understand this, because I recall a line with the anatomy of fingers and other interesting locations. :B)

I like my readers to know what's up, perhaps sometimes more than they would like to know. Many others seem to like a few name drops, some hair descriptions, a few vague acts, and some metaphors for the body at climax--and pillow talk in which the fluff is in the dialogue and not in the headrests.

And, again, that's only if I get into the sex at all. Which is only if the characters decide, or decide to let me in rather than giving me teasing looks and disappearing behind some object or another that inevitably slams in my face. There was one fest I signed up for that required sex and I completely forgot, so I ended up writing another story following a similar line to the first. Thankfully I like having two similar stories that focused on slightly different things; it reminded me of the "tragedy vs. comedy" idea and the fact that there can be endless ways to focus a similar story--or even the same series of events (however unfortunate or fortunate).

That turned into a bit more of a rant. Alas, earwax. (Sorry, I've started saying that when things turn out differently from my expectations.)

Yay gen!

[twisted-twister.livejournal.com]

Better late than never...

I think you raised here very important and valid points and I'm very happy that you posted this 'ramble'. Seeing all the comments only makes this an awesome discussion; thank you for that. This is one of the things I love most about fandom and about this group of amazingly smart authors I am lucky to follow.

I totally agree with you on the 'must-have-sex' issue; I remember looking at the profile of fests and communities that any of you guys recced and promoted, thinking again and again: this is not for me; they want sex and I can't write that. This is one of the reasons I love Hoggywarty so much - thank you for creating this fest with gen writers in mind; knowing that gen option is not only there but also encouraged, makes writing so much easier and encourages the insecure (i.e. me)!!! And of course, the new addition to the calendar, HP friendship, also helps a lot.

Re canon complicity: I think most of us here are with you on this, and we differ only on what we define non canon moments/situations. [I know you said it yourself and so did others, but let me give my own way of reading the canon]

For me, for example, MM/SS (or SS/anyone) is non canon compliant not because (only yesterday I managed to put my finger on it) the age gap or the rival houses and different backgrounds, but because for me, if I read the canon literaly, he stayed loyal to Lily until he died, and my head canon can't see him looking/touching onother (male or female). But as I was trying to crystalise those thoughts so I can voice them here, I discussed them with Duel, who made just as valid point that Snape's loyalty, to her, is posession more than anything else, and therefore can not contradict any relationship - love or otherwise (sorry, Duel, if I misquote you here). I still stick to my own interpretation, because of Dumby's speech about love and all, but discussing this with Duel made me see how different people, who both place canon above all, and who read the same canon, see canon itself differently. Since my reading of the canon puts Snape's love until death to Lily and his murder by the snake as focal points and essential plot devices for the whole series, I personally can't see how he survives in so many fics, and happily shags (and even become domesticated) in others. What isn't spelled out in canon, like Poppy's private life for example, is fair game. But this, spelled out by JKR as the highlight of the seventh book? Can't pass on that one.

As a side note, let me repeat something that I think was said, not necessarily in those words, somewhere above me here. No matter how my personal canon reading is, as long as the characters behave in a believable way and the situation can fit into the universe with reasonong and creative thought, I think I'll enjoy any fic. Because canon is very important to me, but excellent writing - like all of the people who commented here do an a festly basis - is the key to enjoying a fic.

Thanks again for this interesting discussion.